I think my literal (undiagnosed autistic) thinking as a kid is part of the reason that I clung to friends so hard. I was so worried about having/being a "best" friend and then I'd feel abandoned when my one friend wanted to be close with anyone else, especially if I didn't get along with their other friends. I got pushed out of a friend group toward the beginning of middle school that way, and it felt like I had to start all over again. It was so daunting.
Those dynamics sound familiar and I'm sure many can relate! Interesting how you're connecting it to literal thinking. Grasping onto whatever rules we do have / can think of and then wanting to hold on so (too?) tightly. Of course it then feels daunting to start from the beginning and climb up that metaphorical ladder again. Thank you for sharing this here, A. And for reading :)
I have a friend who is a former lover that I call a cactus flower .... we never really "broke up" we were both polyamorous and I got into a monogamous relationship and got married but this friend is a bright comet of occasional deep conversation at least once or twice a year and I see them at community events .... my neurotypical/relationship ladder friends say this is "peripheral" but it's lasted for 15 years .... this is not the only friendship I have had where a lover turned into a long term friend
This makes me so happy to read. I’m sorry you’re receiving “peripheral” comments about it when clearly it’s so meaningful for you! Thank you for sharing this example.
Thanks for sharing that Hanna. I never thought about my friendship or lack of. At school I just stepped aside when school life became too overwhelming. It was a rather lonely experience. Nowadays I try not to care if someone is friends with me or not but I guess it's just an act not too feel hurt like I did at school. My daughter also struggles to find kind friendships as the kids she tends to hang around with are often unkind. She is still too young to understand but I am trying to explain to her how friends should be.
"I guess it's just an act not to feel hurt" oh I'm feeling this! Thank you for sharing that. It takes a lot of courage to step into real friendship when there is a very real risk that we can get pushed aside and hurt.
It must be so hard as a parent to see your child hang around people who are unkind. If you want to share, what are some things you're telling her? How should friends be?
I tell her that friends are kind and don't hit their friends, and if someone hits her, she needs to tell a teacher not to put up with such behaviour. She had a "friend" like that in a nursery and another one like that in reception, so this is an ongoing issue we struggle with. As a family, we have to always reassure her that we love her and are her friends and don't do anything she doesn't like or upset her. I aim to reassure her that she doesn't have to be in an abusive relationship to have someone like her for who she is and give her lots of examples of kind and loving relationships around her and us as a family. This is all a learning curve for me.
What an interesting take on neurodivergent friendships! Gives me a lot of food for thought about which of my friendships that seemed "unusual" on the surface were unusual because of neurodivergence. I will say that neurodivergent folks often want to proceed from 0 to 100 in terms of sharing stories/secrets/personal history, and that can lead to toxic friendships and a lot of messiness because we were forcing intimacy before it was earned through trust. Sometimes, it's okay to proceed slowly from small talk on coffee hangouts to more gradual intimacy. It helps build trust.
It's interesting what you share about diving in deep right away and how it can lead to toxic friendships. I think what I keep coming back to is that we also don't talk about expectations and that can feel us leaving confused about who is sharing what and how deep.
I'm really torn - I LOVE a conversation where we go deep right away, but you're right, it is really risky. High risk, high reward maybe?
In my experience I find it hard sometimes to transition from small talk to deeper conversations. If we start surface level, it's harder for me to figure out how to then gradually get deeper. I hadn't quite realized this before, so that you for sparking that thought!
Hi Hanna- 1) I love this post. I really love the metaphor you used. I’m definitely going to let this article marinate. 2) I also find it difficult knowing the balance of when small talk is acceptable and when I’m “allowed” to move forward into deeper topics. I think diving deep right away makes most sense for me. As a trans guy who used to u-haul in relationships pre transition, I’m curious about the link between u-hauling in relationships and neurodivergence.
Hi Kabir! I think a big part about small talk vs deep talk is also the intentionality, or— not just defaulting to one or the other but trying to be playful and experimental with it. Maybe there’s one person where it feels like deep talk could be fun; and then there’s another interaction where we decide to bring small talk (and maybe even a few prepared questions and answers). As I’m typing this out, I am coming back to the word agency; for me the deliberate choice (at least sometimes) can be empowering, I think.
I’m curious what you mean by “u-hauling”? That term is new to me.
I like the concept of intentionality in conversations. Because it’s difficult for me to find the line on small talk vs deeper talk, I’ve found that it’s helpful to ask “is it okay if I ask a slightly deeper question?” I think some people might think I’m over communicating, but I’d prefer over communicating to not being understood. 😅
U-hauling, as I’ve come to learn about it, is a term used more in the lesbian community. It’s becoming close very fast and then usually moving in together quickly.
ah! learned something new today and now the term "u-haul" makes sense! I'd be curious to explore the link especially since you said you used to u-haul pre transition. By the way, I just want to say: thank you for sharing this thought / question here. I love when conversations here spark all of these new ideas and connections.
Love the question and checking in - making things explicit is sometimes so helpful!
I think my literal (undiagnosed autistic) thinking as a kid is part of the reason that I clung to friends so hard. I was so worried about having/being a "best" friend and then I'd feel abandoned when my one friend wanted to be close with anyone else, especially if I didn't get along with their other friends. I got pushed out of a friend group toward the beginning of middle school that way, and it felt like I had to start all over again. It was so daunting.
Those dynamics sound familiar and I'm sure many can relate! Interesting how you're connecting it to literal thinking. Grasping onto whatever rules we do have / can think of and then wanting to hold on so (too?) tightly. Of course it then feels daunting to start from the beginning and climb up that metaphorical ladder again. Thank you for sharing this here, A. And for reading :)
I have a friend who is a former lover that I call a cactus flower .... we never really "broke up" we were both polyamorous and I got into a monogamous relationship and got married but this friend is a bright comet of occasional deep conversation at least once or twice a year and I see them at community events .... my neurotypical/relationship ladder friends say this is "peripheral" but it's lasted for 15 years .... this is not the only friendship I have had where a lover turned into a long term friend
This makes me so happy to read. I’m sorry you’re receiving “peripheral” comments about it when clearly it’s so meaningful for you! Thank you for sharing this example.
Cactus flower is a great way to describe this!’
Loved this piece even more than your other one, Hanna! Just so good. Thank you. ❤️
Thank you Sophie!! 🧡
Thanks for sharing that Hanna. I never thought about my friendship or lack of. At school I just stepped aside when school life became too overwhelming. It was a rather lonely experience. Nowadays I try not to care if someone is friends with me or not but I guess it's just an act not too feel hurt like I did at school. My daughter also struggles to find kind friendships as the kids she tends to hang around with are often unkind. She is still too young to understand but I am trying to explain to her how friends should be.
"I guess it's just an act not to feel hurt" oh I'm feeling this! Thank you for sharing that. It takes a lot of courage to step into real friendship when there is a very real risk that we can get pushed aside and hurt.
It must be so hard as a parent to see your child hang around people who are unkind. If you want to share, what are some things you're telling her? How should friends be?
I tell her that friends are kind and don't hit their friends, and if someone hits her, she needs to tell a teacher not to put up with such behaviour. She had a "friend" like that in a nursery and another one like that in reception, so this is an ongoing issue we struggle with. As a family, we have to always reassure her that we love her and are her friends and don't do anything she doesn't like or upset her. I aim to reassure her that she doesn't have to be in an abusive relationship to have someone like her for who she is and give her lots of examples of kind and loving relationships around her and us as a family. This is all a learning curve for me.
What an interesting take on neurodivergent friendships! Gives me a lot of food for thought about which of my friendships that seemed "unusual" on the surface were unusual because of neurodivergence. I will say that neurodivergent folks often want to proceed from 0 to 100 in terms of sharing stories/secrets/personal history, and that can lead to toxic friendships and a lot of messiness because we were forcing intimacy before it was earned through trust. Sometimes, it's okay to proceed slowly from small talk on coffee hangouts to more gradual intimacy. It helps build trust.
Hi Tara, thank you for reading and commenting!
It's interesting what you share about diving in deep right away and how it can lead to toxic friendships. I think what I keep coming back to is that we also don't talk about expectations and that can feel us leaving confused about who is sharing what and how deep.
I'm really torn - I LOVE a conversation where we go deep right away, but you're right, it is really risky. High risk, high reward maybe?
In my experience I find it hard sometimes to transition from small talk to deeper conversations. If we start surface level, it's harder for me to figure out how to then gradually get deeper. I hadn't quite realized this before, so that you for sparking that thought!
Hi Hanna- 1) I love this post. I really love the metaphor you used. I’m definitely going to let this article marinate. 2) I also find it difficult knowing the balance of when small talk is acceptable and when I’m “allowed” to move forward into deeper topics. I think diving deep right away makes most sense for me. As a trans guy who used to u-haul in relationships pre transition, I’m curious about the link between u-hauling in relationships and neurodivergence.
Hi Kabir! I think a big part about small talk vs deep talk is also the intentionality, or— not just defaulting to one or the other but trying to be playful and experimental with it. Maybe there’s one person where it feels like deep talk could be fun; and then there’s another interaction where we decide to bring small talk (and maybe even a few prepared questions and answers). As I’m typing this out, I am coming back to the word agency; for me the deliberate choice (at least sometimes) can be empowering, I think.
I’m curious what you mean by “u-hauling”? That term is new to me.
I like the concept of intentionality in conversations. Because it’s difficult for me to find the line on small talk vs deeper talk, I’ve found that it’s helpful to ask “is it okay if I ask a slightly deeper question?” I think some people might think I’m over communicating, but I’d prefer over communicating to not being understood. 😅
U-hauling, as I’ve come to learn about it, is a term used more in the lesbian community. It’s becoming close very fast and then usually moving in together quickly.
ah! learned something new today and now the term "u-haul" makes sense! I'd be curious to explore the link especially since you said you used to u-haul pre transition. By the way, I just want to say: thank you for sharing this thought / question here. I love when conversations here spark all of these new ideas and connections.
Love the question and checking in - making things explicit is sometimes so helpful!
This is so beautiful, in every possible way. Thank you. 💜
Thank you so much, Sophie!